Finished watching episode 10 with subtitles.

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I thought this episode had a lot of talking. Michiru is really getting on my nerves with her weakness. She still went to Sousuke's apartment after all what's happened not to mention her saying, "Don't worry, I'm not going to him." She's just giving him chances. I didn't really understand the reason that caused Sousuke to cry looking at those pictures, I mean does he regret it? Even though this is the explanation, I find it hard to believe that he regrets it. No comment about his death. I'll have to watch the next episode to get the details.

Lifo wrote:

Finished watching episode 10 with subtitles. Click on button to reveal/hide spoiler: I thought this episode had a lot of talking. Michiru is really getting on my nerves with her weakness. She still went to Sousuke's apartment after all what's happened not to mention her saying, "Don't worry, I'm not going to him." She's just giving him chances.

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Isn't she frustrating to watch??? God, she is soooo stupid... Yeah, yeah, yeah, there are people out there in real life who are just as stupid, but come on... Can't she be allowed to have a brain, even if it's the size of an apple? If they really wanted to simulate REAL LIFE, it should've been a murder suicide. But it's blatantly obvious that the writer(s) are gutless.

Quote:

Click on button to reveal/hide spoiler: I didn't really understand the reason that caused Sousuke to cry looking at those pictures, I mean does he regret it? Even though this is the explanation, I find it hard to believe that he regrets it. No comment about his death. I'll have to watch the next episode to get the details.

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The answer is we're not supposed to understand Sosuke: it's quite clear that the writer(s) don't want us to understand him, else they would've developed his character way way back... If this drama gets any writing awards, I'll declare that the entire J-Drama industry is a sham.

*RANT
You guys honestly try too hard to justify everything and look for the good/bad guys. I'm just as annoyed at you for labeling everything as 'bad' or 'good' as you are annoyed at the people who praise the actors on the 'bad' side.
Unfortunately for you, as this drama is supposed to reflect life, it is not just plain black and white. This is NOT an episode of SUPERMAN where you cheer for the good guy and chew out the bad guy.
Furthermore, IMO if you can't even find a shred of sympathy or sadness for anyone's struggle, then you are just as big of a monster as sousuke's character appeared in the drama. Just because someone's not a saint or on the "good" side doesn't make them simply a person who love to do "bad things" because it pleases them. It's called being HUMAN. TRY to sympathize, not just criticize. You're not all saints yourselves so feel free to get off your high-horses. Actions are motivated by SOMETHING. So TRY HARD to not simply blame the individual. Try to consider situations/motives, it's much more enjoyable to watch that way rather than just whining.
*END RANT

I guess I'm just a bit irked that there's barely any constructive discussion going on here. Just reactions like "WOW" or "WHOA." If something isn't spoon-fed to you, try and come up with something yourself. It's so much more fun that way. There's also all this bashing, just incessantly hating the 'bad guy' over and over and makes things redundant and so not interesting.

EDIT: Please do not nit-pick at what I wrote. Just take it as encouragement to write more than 'this sucks' and 'wtf'.
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How can you sympathize with highly underdeveloped characters with no clear reason for their actions?

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drama is supposed to reflect life,

If that were true then why isn't the police involved?

idealism wrote:

How can you sympathize with highly underdeveloped characters with no clear reason for their actions?

Use your imagination. I think there were enough images throughout for people to try and come up with something. Make lemonade out of the lemons you're given bud.

Quote:

drama is supposed to reflect life,

idealism wrote:

If that were true then why isn't the police involved?

Because the DRAMA is supposed to reflect life, not be life. Last Friends is a very internal drama, have you not noticed how isolated the characters are and how limited their actions with the outside world are? In the end, I guess the producers wanted to preserve the 'drama' quality and not make it a documentary. And I think you're asking the wrong person, cause I obviously did not write the screenplay. Better yet rather than just asking one sentence questions, why don't you try and come up with some thought-stimulating commentary cause God knows this thread lacks it.
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This has been one of my favorite dramas of late. Michiru's actions
do get annoying at times but I understand how emotionally damaged
people will return to their abuser.

Then came episode 9 and the writers seemed to get lazy. If this story
took place in an imaginary land without laws and police maybe I could
go along with the actions (or lack thereof) in this episode. But I guess if
the police were called they wouldn't be able to drag out the abuse story.

Seriously, what true friend could see someone they care about being
brutally beaten and not call the police? Especially if they thought, as
this group did, that other members of the group could possibly suffer
the same fate.

Episode 10 has some pretty sloppy writing too but I thought it was an
improvement over the previous episode. And I am still anxious to see
the conclusion.

Yea, I don't get why people are criticizing those who believe that Ryo is doing a good job acting as Sosuke. I mean people are saying that Sosuke is a one dimension character, but that does not reflect how good/bad ryo person is acting as that character. When I see Ryo acting as Sosuke I think he plays him fine... not terrible like hes awkward and can't act, though its nothing that special either but he pulls off the character.

Anyways, all I am asking is why are people being so negative towards other commending certain actors on a good job they are doing? I'm sure you guys are fans of other actors/actress too and have the same feelings towards your idols.

pancakes wrote:

You guys honestly try too hard to justify everything and look for the good/bad guys. I'm just as annoyed at you for labeling everything as 'bad' or 'good' as you are annoyed at the people who praise the actors on the 'bad' side.

I definitely feel you on the way people are reacting to this drama.

While I think Michiru's actions were not-very-well-thought-out (at ALL) in episode 10, she could have done a lot worse. I don't think she's stupid at all -- in fact, I still defend her and the writers for making her very human.

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She broke up with Sousuke over the phone, so I read her going back to give him the key and get her belongings was closure. And humans NEED THAT. He instigated it and she trusted him to not do anything to her; Foolish? Yes. Naive? Very. Stupid? Maybe if you like to throw that word around, but personally, I would only go as far as calling her stupid if she hooked back up with him. THAT would be stupid.

Michiru is the central character, whether anyone likes it or not. Sure, Michiru as a character isn't as endearing as Ruka (if you like her, that is)... but Michiru is the lead. You'll see her actions/inactions more, see what good things and godawful things happen to her, and everything that helps to shape her into becoming the person that she is in episode 1. She said herself that she's a stronger person, and now that we're finally at episode 11 I can honestly believe that.

As for Sousuke,

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They could have fleshed him out more, I agree. Ending him with a tearful scene followed by a suicide was abrupt. However, they gave us enough information to let us know that there IS something wrong with him. Japanese entertainment is VERY subtle -- if they were to flesh him out entirely that might make it look like they're making excuses for an abusive bastard. Personally, I think there would be complaints regardless if he got more background development. He's a character that makes everyone angry, so it's highly likely that people will never be satisfied with whatever happens to him.

I really, really liked Nishikido's acting in episode 10. It really sucks how it had to be so close to the end for the writers to let him have a scene like that, but like I said -- if he had a conflict like that earlier people would probably would complain regardless. I wish he did have that earlier just so he could have had more opportunities to show a different side of Sousuke as a character and also of his acting repertoire, but I'll live with just that one scene.

Also, don't get me wrong; I agree that police involvement should have happened after that first event in Episode 9. But honestly... you have to suspend belief since this is fiction.

*I'm not even sure if this has to be under spoiler cuts since I write vaguely... but I'll put whatever isn't so vague under one.

pancakes wrote:

Furthermore, IMO if you can't even find a shred of sympathy or sadness for anyone's struggle, then you are just as big of a monster as sousuke's character appeared in the drama.

Don't blame us, blame the writer(s): what is Sosuke's struggle... Trying to pick out which person to destroy next in the drama?

How can we possibly have any sympathy or sadness for someone who's portrayed as evil by the writers?

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So he's nice to one little boy. He's all teary-eyed and broken up AFTER raping Michiru.

And we're supposed to sympathize with that?

Ridiculous.

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Just because someone's not a saint or on the "good" side doesn't make them simply a person who love to do "bad things" because it pleases them. It's called being HUMAN.

Wrong.

His beating the crap out of people and trying to ruin their lives isn't something a human being does... I don't see how you can justify any of Sosuke's actions... It's just wrong.

Quote:

TRY to sympathize, not just criticize. You're not all saints yourselves so feel free to get off your high-horses. Actions are motivated by SOMETHING. So TRY HARD to not simply blame the individual.

Well I consider beat downs and wrecking other people's lives as wrong, so I'll stay on my high horse, thank you very much.

And what is that SOMETHING you're talking about?

The writer never ever explains what SOMETHING is, other than these vague, implied little scenes. If he wants us to sympathize or understand his actions why doesn't the writer make it more concrete? Circumstantial evidence isn't enough, IMO.

Isn't it the writer's job to tell a story and /or make a point and not lead the viewers on wild goose chases and to speculate wildly?

pancakes wrote:

EDIT: Please do not nit-pick at what I wrote. Just take it as encouragement to write more than 'this sucks' and 'wtf'.

Sorry, but felt to put that at the top. And, sorry, the whole point of a forum is to discuss opinions as well as debate these interjections. But hey, since you feel you've figured those of us out who have a legitimate concern with the setup of the drama, let's go ahead anyways.

I will, however, point out the good 15-20 pages of a lot of us discussing the flaws of this show in various lengths that go far beyond your 'wtf' and 'this sucks' stereotypes. Hell, if anything, we've been saying "this is bad, and here are the many reasons why".

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The simple fact is that the Sousuke character has not been developed enough to drive any sympathy whatsoever. So he bonded with a child, big deal. He still mercilessly beats the hell out of three of the main characters, shows absolutely no remorse for it until the very VERY last second, and by the time that happens, we have our abrupt suicide that gives everyone no time to sympathize.

As for Ryo's portrayal as Sousuke, I want to point out that I personally feel that it's none of the actors' fault but purely on the writers and directors as far as how badly these characters have been fleshed out. Juri as Ruka DESERVES recognition despite this poor writing, as does Eita for his role as Takeru.

The problem is, though, is that the other characters of Eri, Michiru, and yes even Sousuke have been stripped down so cleanly to their stereotypes that there is absolutely no complexity to their characters and, no matter how strong they may be as actors/actresses, it's near impossible for them to act them into a proper position.

Now, why you bothered to think that we've somehow got this elitist concept of ourselves because we felt that the script started off great and then hammered the only thing giving them ratings into the dirt, you're entitled to your opinion. I don't know about your definitions of being human though, because I for one at least know that there's usually motive in my actions, not just "eh, I felt like it". Sousuke's character hardly ever showed any of this, and to be perfectly honest, never has given a solid enough backstory for us to feel like we should care that he's been doing this.

Fact is, Sousuke was far too prominent in this show from the get-go, and it killed a lot more of the side-stories that many of us found far more interesting on a long-term (Ruka/Taker's the most, obviously). Had they executed the DV storyline a little more smoothly, we probably wouldn't be voicing our complaints as much as we have.

Oh, and one last thing you can hang your hat on: we had high hopes for this series and, speaking for most of us here, we're disappointed that things did not go as well as it could have. On behalf of us in this thread, I apologize that we have standards within our J-Drama that are higher than yours apparently. I for one would rather point out flaws of a show than sit here and lie to myself that this show is groundbreaking and absolutely perfect in every way, when it just simply is not.

pancakes wrote:

idealism wrote: How can you sympathize with highly underdeveloped characters with no clear reason for their actions? Use your imagination. I think there were enough images throughout for people to try and come up with something. Make lemonade out of the lemons you're given bud.

That's a bogus response.

It's the writer's job... If we're suppose to constantly use our imaginations all the time, why do dramas need writers in the first place?

When you show up at a restaurant, you want to be served a complete meal, not given the ingredients to make it yourself.... Likewise, with a drama, you want the full story and not be left with numerous dangling plot holes and devices...

Tenshigure wrote:

Sorry, but felt to put that at the top. And, sorry, the whole point of a forum is to discuss opinions as well as debate these interjections. But hey, since you feel you've figured those of us out who have a legitimate concern with the setup of the drama, let's go ahead anyways. I will, however, point out the good 15-20 pages of a lot of us discussing the flaws of this show in various lengths that go far beyond your 'wtf' and 'this sucks' stereotypes. Hell, if anything, we've been saying "this is bad, and here are the many reasons why". Click on button to reveal/hide spoiler: The simple fact is that the Sousuke character has not been developed enough to drive any sympathy whatsoever. So he bonded with a child, big deal. He still mercilessly beats the hell out of three of the main characters, shows absolutely no remorse for it until the very VERY last second, and by the time that happens, we have our abrupt suicide that gives everyone no time to sympathize. As for Ryo's portrayal as Sousuke, I want to point out that I personally feel that it's none of the actors' fault but purely on the writers and directors as far as how badly these characters have been fleshed out. Juri as Ruka DESERVES recognition despite this poor writing, as does Eita for his role as Takeru. The problem is, though, is that the other characters of Eri, Michiru, and yes even Sousuke have been stripped down so cleanly to their stereotypes that there is absolutely no complexity to their characters and, no matter how strong they may be as actors/actresses, it's near impossible for them to act them into a proper position. Now, why you bothered to think that we've somehow got this elitist concept of ourselves because we felt that the script started off great and then hammered the only thing giving them ratings into the dirt, you're entitled to your opinion. I don't know about your definitions of being human though, because I for one at least know that there's usually motive in my actions, not just "eh, I felt like it". Sousuke's character hardly ever showed any of this, and to be perfectly honest, never has given a solid enough backstory for us to feel like we should care that he's been doing this. Fact is, Sousuke was far too prominent in this show from the get-go, and it killed a lot more of the side-stories that many of us found far more interesting on a long-term (Ruka/Taker's the most, obviously). Had they executed the DV storyline a little more smoothly, we probably wouldn't be voicing our complaints as much as we have. Oh, and one last thing you can hang your hat on: we had high hopes for this series and, speaking for most of us here, we're disappointed that things did not go as well as it could have. On behalf of us in this thread, I apologize that we have standards within our J-Drama that are higher than yours apparently. I for one would rather point out flaws of a show than sit here and lie to myself that this show is groundbreaking and absolutely perfect in every way, when it just simply is not.

You pretty much spoke for me here - we have been extremely diligent in critiquing this drama in a meaningful fashion. It's totally bogus to proclaim our rhetoric as not thought out. We've had some great conversations criticizing the weaknesses not only of a show we wanted to love, but problems with the genre as a whole.

Further, we've had some interesting conversations about cultural interactions and perceptions between Japanese and American/Western culture.

I feel a critique that we are baselessly blowing it off is completely unfounded.
_________________

"Actually, I don't have bones. I'm supported
by a system of fluid-filled bladders"

phlargo wrote:

We've had some great conversations criticizing the weaknesses not only of a show we wanted to love, but problems with the genre as a whole.

Right on.

I've missed out on quite a discussion I agree with what Tenshigure has posted, especially the fact I'd rather much point out glaring flaws of a show rather just pretend that everything is good Also agree with phlargo's point that we have had some great discussions about the show, and I find it hard to believe that anyone would think those discussions were not without much thought and consideration put in.

bmwracer wrote:

That's a bogus response. It's the writer's job... If we're suppose to constantly use our imaginations all the time, why do dramas need writers in the first place? When you show up at a restaurant, you want to be served a complete meal, not given the ingredients to make it yourself.... Likewise, with a drama, you want the full story and not be left with numerous dangling plot holes and devices...

I don't think that's necessarily the case. Leaving things to a viewer's intepretation is not exactly a bad thing for it generates dicussion, which I believe is something they wanted us to do after viewing the show. They wanted perceptions on the same event, some people may only see parts of it while others seeing the rest of it. If everything was spoon-fed, there wouldn't be dicussion and there won't be any point in the drama from the beginning as it was meant to spark discussion about the problems suffered by these characters anyway.

Alright now what are the biggest plot holes? Sousuke's complete past? They've covered that in brief but they've touched it and suggested it a number of times, enough for the viewer to think for themselves unless they're watching without understanding. Eri's past/problems is not a plot hole because in Japan they've got a special program for her, "Eri - My Love". Now that leaves the problem with Takeru, which I'm quite interested in. They should finish they off but I doubt they will. Ruka's problems apparently will be in a different drama? I think I read that somewhere, I think. Lastly, Michiru's problems are shown endlessly (a little to my disgust) but you could see that gradual change in attitude towards Sousuke which makes her develop as a character. There are things people cannot change and that includes how weak a person Michiru is by nature.

I think it isn't a big suprise that they only covered the DV problems to be honest. Michiru being the main character afterall and having only 12 episodes, it's not qutie possible to resolve 4 or 5 problems within that. I gotta agree though, I miss Takeru's plot and I hope it finishes. I also agree that how could they not call the police under those circumstances. If Michiru was that good a friend of theirs, surely they wouldn't bother being nice to Sousuke by not calling the police simply because he works of the government and if he gets a criminal record, he would suffer a hell lot.

ProtoMMC wrote:

Leaving things to a viewer's intepretation is not exactly a bad thing for it generates dicussion, which I believe is something they wanted us to do after viewing the show.

I agree it's not a bad thing, but you've gotta give the viewer a decent amount of information to draw conclusions... To leave the viewer wildly speculating on a character and his/her motivations based on small morsels is like being given a puzzle that can't be solved.

Also, if the DV issue was the main storyline, why wasn't it fleshed out like Ruka's story, which was pretty much laid out from top to bottom over the course of the drama? Isn't that an inconsistency and contradiction to the supposed "You figure it out" plot strategy?

Not exactly, I think the information provided is sufficient. Not to say that it's very much but I think it's sufficient enough to imagine things on your own and develop your own perspective on the matters. Whether you're supposed to sympathize for Sousuke or not I think that is merely a perspective developed from the information gathered and I think it has successfully generated dicussion as desired (probably desired) judging just by this one thread here, we see a vast majority who do not sympathize and a few who do for Sousuke's acts. Therefore I think in terms of the DV plot, I think it's quite a success in that respect.

Whether it being the main plotline however, does not interfere with the way it's laid out. So I don't see the second point in your post. I don't think that simply because Plot A is in the "imagine the story" style doesn't mean that Plot B must be in the same style. Has the Ruka part of the story generated enough buzz? I think it has. It's also had enough buzz to not cover the discussion for the DV plot. I won't pull crap out of my backside saying that it has in Japan or whatever since I'm not there and I can't read any discussions there since I can't be bothered to find scans and read them. However I think I've seen scans that talk (not necessarily dicuss) the matters of lesbian/Ruka's problems. So I think it's also a success in its very own way.

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In the end, if you leave both plots with questions for the viewer to figure out, there might be a bit too many questions and it might not be as enjoyable. The "imagine it your own way" method is best for tragic characters like Sousuke and I believe it's worked out. Yes, it's a sudden death. Yes, it's unexplained. But can you imagine the slightest bit of why he's done all that? You probably can. I wouldn't say his past JUSTIFIES his actions but I certainly have sympathy for him. It's a tragedy that no one guided his mind in his youth and he took himself to the wrong side of things. If anyone has guided him in his youth he certainly wouldn't ended up with all this. To my own perception, he hasn't done wrong in thinking that he must do everything to not lose the one that's important to him. Because it was developed when he was still young when he was without his mother. It is very wrong and a big shame that he did all that to Michiru though and I believe he should be punished for those acts. If anyone had corrected him while he was still growing up like he is trying to help other children, these matters would not have arose, which sums out his contradictory character.

god, this is almost like writing an essay for media studies and I don't even take that!

ProtoMMC wrote:

Not exactly, I think the information provided is sufficient. Not to say that it's very much but I think it's sufficient enough to imagine things on your own and develop your own perspective on the matters. Whether you're supposed to sympathize for Sousuke or not I think that is merely a perspective developed from the information gathered and I think it has successfully generated dicussion as desired (probably desired) judging just by this one thread here, we see a vast majority who do not sympathize and a few who do for Sousuke's acts. Therefore I think in terms of the DV plot, I think it's quite a success in that respect.

I think it's grossly insufficient, considering all the time they spent showing how violent and spiteful he is... As mentioned time and time again in this thread, it would've been much better served to spend more time on the character's backstory/motivations rather than the gratuitous (IMO) beat downs.

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Whether it being the main plotline however, does not interfere with the way it's laid out. So I don't see the second point in your post. I don't think that simply because Plot A is in the "imagine the story" style doesn't mean that Plot B must be in the same style. Has the Ruka part of the story generated enough buzz? I think it has. It's also had enough buzz to not cover the discussion for the DV plot.

It's not about buzz at all, but about story/character development.

Why can't the development of the stories be consistent? Why must they be different? Is it to be artsy? What's the purpose?

I think this unevenness and underdevelopment has unfortunately shifted the discussion (at least here at J-D) from the story's topics (DV, GID, incest, etc.) to the entire production of the drama itself... And the fact that the number of episodes is changing on a daily basis is a commentary on what's going on behind the scenes... Which also leaves us to our imaginations.

ProtoMMC wrote:

Ruka's problems apparently will be in a different drama? I think I read that somewhere, I think.

In the immortal words of Muhammad Ali, "I'm a bad, BAD man!"

Meep! Spoilers there Proto, spoilers!

Anyways, the flaw in your argument, the whole "figure out what happens" plot method, is completely contradictory in how the formula operates really. Why in the world would they flesh out the whole backstory of a supposed 'sub-plot' and leave their main pillar with such few details that it never is explained properly? That's ass-backwards if I say so myself.

Now, to jump into spoiler world to address your second issue:

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As far as Sousuke's suicide, in my humble opinion I'm going to have to respectfully disagree in it's execution (pun intended). Now I'm glad that you drew your own conclusions with a whole self-developed background story, but the fact of the matter is that when you have to do it for a main plot instead of the amount of info and scene time we've gotten on even Takeru's storyline makes it sad. Hell, had they not toyed with the back episodes every other day, if they slipped in a single episode that was a pure flashback of Sousuke that explained the whole story before this as to why he's so screwed up in the head, it'd probably ease the frustration. Having said that, 50$ says the special does that, seeing that these writers are such experts on timing.

As far as the other subplots are concerned, if they weren't planning on resolving the issues in the first place, Takeru's would've been perfect for a 'webisode' series not unlike Eri's.

If I had to sum the show itself up in one word, it'd be "Contradictory". Everything could have been fantastic had it gone one way, but instead it went another and made things aggravating to watch. The reason? Ratings and shock value.